Protocol Seminar

[M Martinez <ironqueen@softhome.net>]

Announcement: Zami shouts, "Folks! Please come join us in the seminar...
located downstairs in the OOC area, the Auditorium. Tonight's seminar is about
protocol! We'll be starting in a couple of seconds."

Praxton runs onstage, to the rancorous applause of the multitude. (shoore)

Praxton says, "Evening, all, and welcome! I hope we have a productive seminar
tonight, which, as Zami announced, is about protocol."

Praxton points at Iason, "Iason will be my second tonight, so if y'all want to
interrupt with a question, he's the man you wanna page.

Iason heads for the stage, making sure his lines are set.

Praxton says, "Most of my remarks are pre-written, since we have a -lot- of
ground to cover. I'll try to keep the pace swift, so please behave and page
all
your questions to keep the spam down. :)"

Praxton says, "Tonight's seminar will consist of two parts: one will deal
exclusively with protocol, the second with etiquette. I should clarify the
difference between the two. Etiquette is the most outward sign of breeding and
education; it marks a person as belonging rightfully to the upper levels of
the
faufreluches."

Praxton says, "Protocol goes beyond etiquette: it serves as a law of procedure
for the socialy and politically savvy, who are sticklers for detail and the
traditions of the upper levels of society."

Praxton says, "Let's kick off the first section, on protocol. We'll begin with
the upper crust of Imperial society: the Siridari."

Praxton says, "'Siridari' is the plural of 'Siridar' (instead of 'Siridars').
Since the title denotes the holding of a planetary fiefdom, it's assumed the
Siridar is titled; therefor, the title is suffixed to the word. Hence
'Siridar-Count', 'Siridar-Earl'."

Praxton says, "The title can stand for itself, but the 'Siridar' part cannot.
If one ever uses the 'Siridar-<title>' construction, one is almost always
obliged to follow with the name of the fief held. Thus, you have 'Duke
Atreides', and 'Siridar-Duke Atreides of Caladan'. Not 'Siridar Atreides', or
'Siridar-Duke Atreides.'"

Praxton says, "In RL, titles are affixed to the fief, not the person. The
clearest system of titles of nobility, the British one, works on this
principle. But in 'Dune', the fief can change, and the title remain the same.
Witness Siridar-Duke Leto Atreides of Caladan becoming Siridar-Duke Leto
Atreides of Arrakis. In a British system, Leto's title would have changed to
whatever rank the fief had attached to it, perhaps 'Count' or 'Baron'."

Praxton says, "So, if we were to follow the strict British interpretation, it
would be rather unrepresentative, to say the least. So I've done a bit of
home-cooking to provide a few suggestions for the styles the Siridari can
use."

Praxton says, "For Dukes, the correct style is, 'Your Grace' when addressed,
'His Grace' when referred to. 'My Lord Duke' is the formal salutation, and
'His
Grace <name> the Siridar-Duke <house> of <fief>' is the formal announcement.
Everyone calls a Duke, 'Your Grace', except his social equals, who use
'Duke'."

Praxton says, "Marquises, or in proper English, 'Marquesses', should be '*'.
'Monsigneur Marquis' is a usable salutation, and 'The Most Honorable <name>
the
Siridar-Marquis <house> of <fief>' when being announced formally. By the by,
the proper femenine of 'Marquis' is 'Marquise'."

[* note: in later discussion, the following were posited as workable styles:
  'Your Illustrious Excellency', 'Your Excellency' and 'Segneurie']

Praxton says, "You'll notice a '' gap in there. I was seriously stumped as to
the proper style for a Marquis. Ginazies, take note, and tell Morgen. :)"

Praxton says, "Any ideas, anyone?"
Maia says, "Depends on what other forms of address are used already for the
other titles..."
Cesare nods in agreement with Maia.

Praxton nods, "Okay, we'll leave this for last."
Praxton says, "For a Count, I'm partial to using 'Your Excellency' to
address and 'His Excellency' in referrence. The proper presentation would be
'His Excellency <name>, Siridar-Count <house> of <fief>.'"

Praxton says, "Viscounts are only slightly below Counts, so most of the style
remains the same. The slightly different form, 'The Lord <name>,
Siridar-Viscount
<house> of <fief>' is used as the formal announcement."

Praxton says, "A Baron is styled 'Your Lordship'. 'My Lord Baron' is the
avocational, and 'The Lord Baron' when spoken about. An formal announcement
would sound something like, 'The Lord <name> <house> Siridar-Baron of <fief>.'
The femenine of 'Baron', at least for Harkonnen, is 'Baronin'. In other cases,
it could be 'Baronne', or 'Baronesa' or 'Baroness'. I'm partial to 'Baronne',
myself, as it avoids the inevitable mental link to a certain GI Joe character.
;)"

[note: Praxton's flubbing of the Count/Viscount order was noted and corrected
	for this log. Many thanks to all who caught the error]

Cesare was going to point that out as well. "Also, Lord could refer to any of
these Siridari, as they're all the lords of the worlds they govern."

Praxton says, "Earls are the equivalent to Barons for most things. The only
difference is in the presentation... in this case, 'The Right Honorable <name>
<house>, Siridar-Earl of <fief>. Note that for Earls and Barons, the House
surname is attached back to the given name."

Nils says, "The prefix 'vis' (pronounced 'vye', btw) is like 'vice', as in
'vice president' or 'viceroy'."

Praxton says, "So much for Siridari and their profusion of titles. :)"

Praxton says, "As a side note, remember that RL noblemen are very taken to
adding streams of lesser titles to their principle one. An extreme example is
the King of Spain, whose full title is "His Catholic Majesty Juan Carlos, By
the Grace of God, King of Spain, Castile, Leon, Aragon, the Two Sicilies, of 
Jerusalem, Navarre, Granada, Toledo, Valencia, Galicia, Mallorca, Menorca,
Seville, 
Cardea, Cordoba, Cocega, Murcia, Jaen, Algeria, Algernon, Gibraltar, the
East and 
West Indies, the Canary Islands, and the Oceanic Colonies, Archduke of
Austria, 
Duke of Burgundy, Brabant and Milan, Count of Habsburg, Flanders, Tirol and 
Barcelona, Lord of Vizcaya and Molina."

Zami shivers.

Praxton says, "I expect most Houses Major have their own store of titles that
are paraded out on occasion. :)"

Cesare knows of a few examples whose titles are over 200.

Praxton says, "The children of Dukes, Marquises or Counts are -all- 'Lord
<name>' and 'Lady <name>', regardless of precedence. Heirs-designate only use
the 'na-<title>' form when presented or announced... the form is otherwise not
used in speech, so you would never say, 'Yes, my Lord Na-Marquis'."

Praxton says, "In the case of the children of Viscounts, Earls and Barons,
all the
children are 'The Honorable' <name> <house>, for instance, 'The Honorable
Ulricke Harkonnen'. Similarly, the title 'na-<title>' is never used in speech
or address, only as referrence."

Praxton says, "A brief overview of the styles and titles of Houses Minor:
-All-
House Minor nobles are addressed as 'My Lord' or 'My Lady', never 'Your Grace'
or 'Your Lordship'. The formal presentation would be 'The Lord Count Adolphus
Grier of Ecaz', there is no 'na-' form for House Minor heirs."

Praxton says, "There is a special case I'd like to go over before we move on:
the Padishah Emperor Fredhrick XIX."

Praxton says, "The Emperor is styled, 'Your Imperial Majesty', or, if one's
station is high enough,'Your Majesty'. He is referred to in conversation as
'His Majesty' and nothing else -ever-.. not 'the Emperor', or anything else.
When speaking to him, one calls him nothing but 'Your Majesty'... not
'Sire' or
'My Lord'... You get the point. In speech, his House name (Corrino) is never
mentioned... it's used only by his non-royal relations."

Praxton says, "Two things to keep in mind when RPing with the Emperor. One,
never -ever- look him directly in the eyes. It's -the- single -greatest-
breach
of manners an otherwise courtly and polite person can commit. Depending on
your
rank, you should look at your own feet, or a space between your feet and His
Majesty's, or at His Majesty's feet, or, most boldly, at a medal or brooch or
ring on His Majesty's person."

Praxton says, "Two, there is something called the Imperial Presence. To
oversimplify, it's a space that no one is allowed into, or out of, or to cross
or otherwise breach, without His Majesty's express permission. It varies in
size according to the situation... using Court as an example, the Presence
would cover the entirety of the dias, the floor in front of the throne, and
the
central walkway leading up to the throne from the Selamlik entrance."

Praxton says, "The Emperor's sons, daughters and wives are all 'Your
Highness'.
The relations of the Emperor that, not being royal, hold positions and titles
of their own are likewise styled, 'Your Highness'. Children are 'Prince
<name>'
or 'Princess <name>', obviously, and the Crown Prince is 'His Royal Highness'
when spoken of, and 'Your Highness' when spoken to."

Praxton says, "And finally, I'd like to touch on two forms I've often seen
misused: 'Sire' and 'my Liege'."

Praxton says, "It's perfectly proper to call a person 'Sire' instead of 'Your
Excellency', for instance, but only -after- you've used the person's proper
title in the conversation."

Praxton turns to Iason, "I'll exemplify."
Iason nods a bit, then begins the mock scene.
Praxton clears his throat and goes quasi-IC. "Ambassador, do you have the
reports on the Ginaz bombing compiled and ready for the Mentat?"
Iason nods a bit as he straightens. "Yes, My Lord Duke."
Praxton smoothes the front of his tunic, "Excellent. Keep me appraised of the
inquiry, we'll discuss this further after the meeting."
Iason bows deeply. "Yes, Sire."

Praxton claps his hands.
Iason erks. "I should have added some more honorifics.
Praxton says, "That's the best way to use to use 'Sire' as title... after
you've already used the person's proper style."

Nils notes that now that Morgen's here and we've gone through all the
ranks, we
can decide upon the proper address for a Marquis.

You say, "'As you wish, Sire' or 'As you wish, my Liege' is better in this
case, however."
Praxton will get to that one in a bit, Iason. :)


Praxton was about to propose that, "How about it? What is a good form for the
Marquis?"
Nils says, "Your Holiness?"
Cesare says, "Esteemed Excellency?"
Morgen likes that one.
Praxton says, "My best was 'Your Emminence'. What do you think?"
Cesare says, "Eminence is a religious title."
Sumter says, "Mein Herr Feldmarschal?"
Praxton says, "So is Holiness. ;)"
Morgen nods
Cesare says, "True, and in my estimation should not be used for the same
reason."
Morgen says, "Seriously we going to figure it out?"
Nils likes "Sweetcakes."
Praxton says, "Unless you already thought of the answer for us, Morgen,
yes. ;)"

Steffan says, "Morgen is my father...how would --I-- address him? Just as
everyone else?"
Steffan says, "and what if its just the two of us and no one else around?
could
it be less formal?"
Maia takes Sumter by the ear... "And I think in Steffan's case it'd depend on
the situation... in 'public', probably as formally as the rest of us..."
Steffan says, "can I ever simply call him father?"
Wolfe says, "'sir' is the generally approved upper-class english Father<-son
title, on the whole. Informally."
Wolfe says, "They generally still stick to it. 'Father' IS about the only
other
acceptable choice."


Iohannes says, "Seriously, how about something like Honoured Lord?"
Iason likes the sound of that.
Iohannes says, "Or perhaps, 'Illustrious Lord'?"
Praxton says, "Hmm, Landsraad High Council already has dibs on 'Your
Honor'. ;)"
Cesare says, "Or Illustrious Excellency."
Morgen says, "Wouldn't it just be Marquis Morgen Lear of Ginaz? Then maybe
M'Lord, and doesn't alot depend upon the customs of that particular house?"
Zami always thinks of French when she hears the word 'Marquis' and then thinks
of something along the lines of 'The Marquis de Ginaz.'...
Nils goes down the list. "So far, it goes, Your Grace, Your <something>, Your
Excellency, Your Excellency, Your Lordship, and Your Lordship?"
Praxton bangs his gavel a couple'a times... "Okay, in order..."
Cesare says, "How about Seigneur?"
Cesare says, "Or Esteemed Seigneur?"
Nils says, "We could add one more 'Your Grace'."
Praxton says, "To the question of the proper style for a Marquis... no,
Morgen,
you can't -not- have an address. It's a custom of the Imperium, not set by a
single House or dependant on timeframe. 'Signeur' is good, but 'Signerie', I
like better. :)"
Cesare scowls.
Praxton corrects his French, "Signeurie."
Zami agrees.
Praxton says, "In the end, this is for Morgen to decide... I'm just proposing
general outlines that would serve all of us. :)"
Morgen never said he didn't want to have an adress, "I was saying that alot of
it depends upon the House correct? And then there is an external standard that
is acceptable in the Imperium."
Joral says, "I found the english usage of Marquis"
Asaf'nor walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.
Praxton says, "Okay, Morgen first, then Joral."
Praxton says, "Morgen, IMHO every House has an internal system of titles and
honorifics, so, yes, it does depend on the House."
Morgen is looking in a Thesarus and it says as another form of adress as Peer.
Praxton says, "However, people of other culture should know how to 'properly'
address someone according to a mostly-regular and unified system, hence the
peerage."
Praxton guesses we'll have to put this one on the back-burner. :)
Praxton says, "Onward, yes?"
Joral says, "Is addressed as "My Lord Marguis" and refer to as "Your Lordship"
(At least what my source says)"
Cesare seconds that emotion.

Praxton says, "The form 'my liege' is only proper when the person saying it
is,
in fact, allegied to the other person. This is most likely the case of
military
men, bodyguards and such. Most other retainers are hired rather than allegied,
meaning they will serve their lord or lady but are not beholden to give their
lives up for them. A subtle point, but one that soldiers may appreciate."
Praxton says, "In other words, 'Only say it if you mean it.' :)"

Praxton says, "This wraps up the first section, dealing with protocol. I'd be
glad to field any questions you might have before moving on to etiquette."

Zami must apologize and step out at this point as she's had a real long RL
day.

Praxton says, "Okay, onward to etiquette."
Iason nods.

Announcement: Zami shouts, "Night folks. Everyone remember to thank Praxton
and
the other heads for contributing and putting their time into making this very
concise seminar!"

Praxton says, "Etiquette is really just a fancy word for 'manners'. Being
exhustive here will prove impossible, so I'll just run through the most
often-encountered and most maligned of all forms of etiquette: the bow."

Praxton says, "Herbert mentions something called 'the dancer's bow', implying
that there are a number of them that all noble-born or high-ranking men and
women would know. So we can assume that, not only do you know a -lot- of
different bows, but can read subtle clues and hints into each of them."

Praxton says, "I'll deal with the masculine bows first, then into the femenine
as required, yes?"

Praxton points to Nils, "You can be my guinea pig for this first one." :)
Asaf'nor thought females courtesy.
Cesare points out that Nils has been idle for 11 minutes.
Nils stands up from his seat behind the drums and joins Praxton on stage.

Praxton says, "As a rule of thumb, the lower ranking bows first, and the
higher
ranking react as appropriate."
Praxton nods at Cesare, "Cesare, if Nils and I be in the same room, how do you
greet us?"
Iason whips out the spellchecker. "Curtsey, Asaf'nor."

Cesare says, "Your Grace and Your Lordship?"
Praxton nods, "First the Duke, then turn to the Viscount and acknowledge his
salute..."
Nils notes that he's an Excellency.
Cesare says, "I thought Prax said to switch that and the one he said for
Count."
Nils says, "Didn't he also say Excellency for Count?"
Asaf'nor prefers the archaic spelling. :P

Praxton says, "Exactly. Cesare will bow to Praxton, then turn to Nils, who
will
start bowing as the moment Cesare finishes his bow."
Nils is an old man and has slow reactions. You two will be in the next room by
the time I realize someone's entered.
Cesare chuckles.
Praxton grins, "Gotta be on your toes, yes? The timing is the thing that shows
respect, as you are not saluting a man who is himself saluting."
Praxton says, "Now, as for the different bows themselves...."

Praxton says, "First, there is 'the regal nod'. It's basically a long, slow,
nod of head, like you were going to sleep, with or without the maintaining of
eye contact, with or without a slight twist of the head. Most used by Siridari
and many higherups."

Nils nods regally to His Grace.
Praxton says, "Good! You can stick as many details in here as you want, to
make
the gesture more pregnant with meaning."
Nils nods regally to His Grace, throwing his neck out.

Praxton says, "For instance, not breaking eye contact may mean you don't quite
trust or respect the Duke. Not turning your head at all may indicate
uncertainty or fear."

Praxton shoos Nils off the stage. "Thank you, that'll be enough." :)
Nils shuffles off into the orchestra pit.

Praxton says, "Then there are the bows themselves. The 'nobleman's bow', is a
nice, compact dropping of the head with accompaining slight hunching of the
shoulders, always dropping one's gaze to the floor."

Praxton turns to Iason, "This is how a high-ranking officer would bow to
another, for instance."

Iason bows deeply to Praxton, upon sighting him, holding it respectfully low.
Iason maintains the bow for several seconds, before straightening up.
You say, "A count of 5 or so's a good starting point."

Praxton smiles, "Good!"
Praxton says, "Then there's the 'dancer's bow', used quite literally, 'when
unsure of the other's station'. It's a neutral, curteous bow, proper for
all to
use. It's a bending from the waist, one hand tucked at the abdomen and the
other in the small of the back, eyes straight forward as the head dips
naturally."

Praxton says, "Finally, there's the 'deep bow', used when there is an
important
difference in station. It is like a 'dancer's bow', except that both hands are
held at heart-level, right hand around the fisted left, eyes cast downward as
the waist is bent and straightened."

Praxton turns to Iason, "This is how a lower-ranking commoner retainer would
greet a Siridar, heir or other nobleman."

Iason demonstrates by casting his gaze to the floor as he clasps his hands and
dips into a low, very formal bow.

Praxton says, "There are two other forms of salutation, hardly ever used.
First, the 'genuflection', which consists of dropping gracefully to one knee,
hands tucked and head lowered as in the 'deep bow', until the signal to
rise is
given. Obviously, this is a measure of very very very high respect."

Praxton says, "And finally, the most extreme form of salutation, the
'prostration'. Here, the salutant drops gracefully first to one knee, then
to the
other, then places his body flat on the floor, forehead smack dab on the
tiles,
arms extended straight out sideways. You can imagine the extremes of stations
or circumstances warranting this pose."

Praxton says, "Any questions before we proceed to the curtsey? :)"
Cesare shakes his head.
Iason turns to the Emperor's throne and gracefully falls to one knee, sliding
down onto both as his arms spread and his forehead lightly touches the floor,
fully prone.
Iason rises, then immediately drops to one knee, head bowed and neck
vulnerable
to an executioner's axe, as he faces the Emperor.
Praxton applauds Iason, "Proper form if he's in the Presence, and courting
favor."

Sumter folds both his arms behind his back and raises on his feet, letting the
heels of his boots come together. ;)

Joral says, "i have one"
Praxton says, "Joral..?"
Joral says, "What is the correct form to bow toward the Emperor?"
Praxton says, "Depends on your station, Joral. Siridari must at least 'deep
bow'. Praxton genuflected the last time he was in the Presence, as should most
others. Commoners with little status or reknown should most definately
prostrate."
Joral says, "At all times or only formal occasions?"
Iason finds that there IS no informal occasion when around the Imperial
Presence.
Praxton says, "On occasions of state, yes. Otherwise, a deep bow is
sufficient."
Praxton says, "At a party, for instance, or the opera or ballet. When His
Majesty enters, it would be proper for all to stand and bow deeply. If His
Majesty looks at you directly, you'd be advised to genuflect."
Praxton says, "Does that answer your question, Joral? :)"
Joral says, "yes...thanks"

Maia wonders about the Club, or the Hotel, or any other fairly informal
settings? Not just the emperor... but bowing in general...
Praxton nods Maia, "That deserves a more in-depth answer... if I may..?
Maia nods....
Praxton says, "You should have an good idea of where the person you are bowing
to is in the faufreluches is, relative to yourself. If she is the tiniest bit
above you, you must at least do a 'dancer's bow'. (this in the case of men,
we'll get to the curtseys momentarily)."
Praxton says, "If the other person is below your station, she must bow to
-you-, and you may return with anything from a 'dancer's bow' to a 'regal
nod'."
Praxton says, "If the other person is much higher in station than you, you are
required to at least, 'dancer's bow'. This is actually the best catch-all form
of salutation. You really can't go wrong with a dancer's bow."
Maia supposes we would do such only if they approach us? or we approach them?
Twould be rather awkward to keep one eye on the door at all times in the
Club...
Praxton smiles to Maia, "Astute observation. Yes, you return only the bows
you're given, and initiate only to those of higher station whose presence you
want to be in.
Maia grins. "Exciting. So I can lurk in dark corners and not have to give my
presence away by bowing/curtseying... ;) Thank you. :)"
Praxton says, "Exactamondo. As I said, very astute of you to notice."

Praxton says, "Alrighty, we move on to the curtseys!"
Praxton says, "Women have a 'regal nod' of their own, and it's used exactly
the
same way in exactly the same circumstances, perhaps with a little more lateral
head motion."

Praxton says, "Then, there the 'slow curtsey', given to one of equal or
slightly higher station. The lady steps back a foot or so, and drops her
curtsey with her torso totally straight, head up and eye contact maintained."

Praxton says, "Next, we have the 'dancer's curtsey'. It's as neutral and
non-commital as its masculine counterpart. The lady drops back half a pace,
drops her curtsey with her head bowed and eyes downcast, as her hands raise
the
train of her dress to about a 45-degree angle fromt the vertical."

Praxton says, "There is the 'good curtsey', which is represents a complete
dip,
with the right arm fully extended and pointing almost backwards, and the left
arm bent and held at waist level. The head and gaze are again cast down."

Praxton says, "Finally, the 'deep curtsey', the most formal salutation
expected
of a woman. The lady takes a full step backward, front leg perfectly straight,
dips until she's, well, sitting on the floor basically, with both her arms
fully extended and pointing backwards, head down and eyes closed. As you can
imagine, a woman can't rise from that position unassisted."

Maia says, "Well, not in heels. ;)"
Freya laughs
Cesare has little knowledge of these "femenine problems."

Praxton says, "In general, women do not genuflect or prostrate themselves,
although a woman cast in a politically or socially strenous situation may
elect
to."
Cesare says, "Prostration could cause some....problems with women, don't you
think?"
Iason notes the center of gravity's a problem, yes.

Praxton takes a deep breath, "Those are my remarks as I had prepared them.
Would any of you hae any questions so as we can wrap up?"
Feyd points to Agnes of God.. depends on situation, and if there's a
basketball
attached
Cesare restrains his laughter.

Nils raises his hand.
Praxton says, "Nils..?"
Nils puts his hand down. "For reference, the names of the fiefs under each
noble... Duchy (dukedom?), marquisate, county (?), viscounty, barony, and
earldom?"
Praxton says, "I prefer 'duchy'. 'Marquisat' would be most correct, I think.
The others are dead-on."
Feyd jots down marquisate.. haven't heard that one yet.
Nils also notes that Marchioness (pronounced like a female Martian) is an
acceptable feminine of Marquis.
Praxton nods at Nils, "Since 'Marquis' is the French variation, I mentioned
only the female French 'Marquise'." :)

Maia supposes women can never, ever bow?
Praxton shakes his head, "Just as men can't curtsey... althought, like I said,
women in roles of power may wish to use masculine gestures as a sort of
statement... I think women have a little more leeway in this regard than men
do."
Joral says, "Would female soldiers be "honorary males" as far as bowing,
etc...?"
Cesare says, "I should worry if Nils decided to curtsey."
Maia notes that it's hard to curtsey properly in pants.
Praxton says, "But if Ivanova decided to bow, for instance, or a heroic
soldier
who happened to be female, I assume it'd cause quite a stir, and in the end
accepted rvrn if not totally ladylike. ;)"

Nils has one more question. "Exits. Protocol for leaving? Same as entering?"
Maia ahhs, yes... "And would a lower-ranking type have to ask permission to
leave?"
Praxton answers Nils first, "When a presence, be it Imperial or otherwise,
leaves, all others should use the same salutation they used when entering said
presence. None others."
Praxton turns to Iason once more, "We shall demonstrate the mechanism for
taking one's leave..."
You say, "Your leaving or mine?"
Praxton grins, "You leave first. Then I will."

Iason glances at his timepiece, then bows deeply to the Duke, his manner
apologetic. "I fear that I have an appointment that requires my presence
elsewhere, my Liege."
Praxton inclines his head to Iason, an understanding gleam in his eye, "Of
course, Ambassador. Mustn't keep a lady waiting, must we?"

Praxton says, "Now, the other way around...."
After a pause, Praxton rises to his feet, "So it's decided, Ambassador? We'll
look those papers over tomorrow, yes?"
Iason's head bobs, as he bends at the waist into a respectfully low
genuflection. "As you will, my Liege."

Maia thanks ye both for the demonstration...

Praxton says, "I'd like to make one final remark in passing..."

Praxton says, "A genuflection is perhaps overkill there, but still fine. ;)"
Iason was using it as a descriptive verb, but it was a variation from
'bow'. =)
Freya smiles.
Iason does overkill anyhow.

Feyd should hunt up the article on the formal person (2nd.. 3rd?) pronouns and
verb forms..

Sumter also wonders another thing. Saluting with weapons, done, or not done?
Praxton says, "To answer Sumter's query... you should only salute with your
weapon to the person whose weapon it -is-, namely your Siridar, and only when
it's permissible for you to bear arms."

Praxton says, "If there no more questions or thoughts, we can wrap this up
here. Anyone?"
Cesare has nothing to add or ask.

Iason suggests forms for challenges.
You say, "Or is that another seminar?"
Praxton says, "I'd love to tackle the subject of 'Honor in the Duniverse', if
there's demand for it and y'all aren't tired of my perorations yet. ;)"
Praxton says, "In a separate seminar, of course. :)"

Iason nods. "Merely asking because mishandling anyone ONE of the things we've
done tonight is grounds for a challenge."
Feyd says, "Actually, Prax, there's a great treatise on fencing and duels,
ik..
including the challange. hunt around www.sca.org, for artemisia. I think it's
there"
Joral says, "grounds if someone is in a bad mood perhaps....."

Praxton says, "Rule of thumb: miffing up a bow, title or other form of
politeness isn't really grounds for calling out -except- and -unless- there
are
enough witnesses and/or grounds to assume the other person meant a direct
offense against you."
Feyd nods.. Great Convention is something to keep in mind
Praxton says, "For the sake of RP, we should all assume we all know the proper
forms for bowing and styling someone, even if they aren't explicitely used in
RP."
Cesare noddies.

Praxton says, "Actually, I was going to comment on this before I got
booted. We
shouldn't promote an atmosphere in which being called out is a real danger
during innocent, recreational RP. I've known numerous cases in which people
sit
in the OOC room, afraid to RP with anyone for fear they might offend and thus
cause an Imperium-wide incident..."

Praxton suggests tolerance and education, "It was the purpose of this seminar
to give a bit of theoretical backdrop, as it were, so as to help dispell those
fears of making a social faux pas, with potentially disastrous consequences."
Joral says, "Wouldn't it also be bad form to challenge someone you could kill
without blinking unless they actually insult you?"

Maia says, "And so we know how to insult people if we want to cause an
Imperium-wide incident? ;)"
Praxton grins to Maia, "Nothing gets by you, does it?" ;)

Praxton nods to Joral, "In those cases, you just have the offensive nobody
summarly executed... no duel is needed when the offender is of much lower
rank."
Joral says, "actually I meant challenging someone with no fighting skill"
Praxton says, "Certainly. There is no honor in defending your honor from
someone without the skill to defend his own, much less stand behind the words
he offended you with."

Praxton says, "But like I said, that might be the subject of another
seminar.... the concept of honor is a fascinating one, and much
misrepresented,
I think."

Praxton says, "If there are no more questions, we'll call it a wrap. Thank you
very much for your time and presence. For myself, it was an uncommon pleasure.
:)"