Economic Summit, Mon Jan 11 20:30:00 EST 1999

[Crist Clark <asaf_nor@yahoo.com>]

I guess I deserved what I got for using Yahoo! Mail. This time the 
actual log.

Log edited with Logedit 2.6.9pl on Tue Jan 12 00:20:28 EST 1999

Using configuration file /usr/home/penn/.logeditrc
Editing out: @admin @chat arrive/left pages ANSI tf-messages NOSPOOF
Regexp stripping: Queue, Semaphore, ^Huh\?, ^I don't see that, ^ OOC,
^ IC, ^ NEW, ^ GST, ^ CRW, ^ NBH, ^Channel
Logged by Asaf'nor
Word-wrapping at 72, 0, 2
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Asaf'nor stands up and clears his throat, "First, I would of course
like 
  to thank you all for coming here tonight. I think it is encouraging
to 
  have a farily good turn out. I think the biggest problem that we had 
  with the economy in the first round was not with the actual system, 
  but rather with a lack of understanding of the system. Perhaps a lack 
  of agreement on how to run the system might be a better way to phrase 
  it." 
Asaf'nor says, "I do wish maybe one Head woulda made it... anyway..." 
Asaf'nor says, "Before I continue any further, a few procedural issues. 
  (1) Please, if you have not already, review 'OOCInfo
Meetings-Players' 
  and 'OOCInfo Etiquette.' (2) My 'queue maintainer' this evening will 
  be Steffan please page him if you would like to be recognized to ask
a 
  question or add a comment. And (3) if you have not already, please 
  read the posts on the Theme Bulletin Board (+bbread 5/<#>)." 
Asaf'nor looks around the room, "I want to make it very clear that I am 
  looking for input on the ideas I will be presenting. This meeting is 
  not meant to be for me to pronounce upon the MUSH what _will_ happen. 
  I want some feedback. 
Asaf'nor shuffles his notes, "Now, I am going to make some assumptions 
  about you, my audience, in order to keep this reasonable. I'll assume 
  you all are familiar with the _Dune_ theme of Frank Herbert's novels. 
  I'll assume you all know a thing or two about MUSHing. And most 
  outlandish of all, I'll assume you have /some/ familiarity with the 
  Econ System as it stands." 

Alethia chuckles. 

Asaf'nor holds up his hand, "Now before anyone decides that this is 
  going to be all over your head, I must tell you this not going to be 
  that complicated. As I tried to get across in the posts to the Theme 
  board, the idea is to have a system that everyone can grasp the
basics 
  of quickly, but yet leave it complex enough that there are not a lot 
  of 'sure-things' when it comes to figuring out what the best option 
  is. 

Mikael hums innocently. 

Asaf'nor pans his wide eyes around the room, "Everyone with me so far?" 

Mikael nods. 

Alethia nods 

Sha'ara'diin bobs his head in ascent. 

Asaf'nor says, "The Economy here is only a backdrop for Houses to play 
  against. Individual players do not have a stake in the economy except 
  to the extent that the situation of their House reflects back on
them. 
  Filling the coffers of your House should not be an OOC goal. Rather, 
  the goal is to use the economy as part of your character's background 
  and motives in RP." 
Asaf'nor says, "For Houses, besides providing a background, it should 
  produce interaction among them. We want the economy to, in some
cases, 
  create competition for resources and in others, lead Houses to 
  cooperate to most efficiently use them. Perhaps, the ideal is to
leave 
  it up to the Houses to decide which one of the two choices is best
for 
  them and most in character. I assume that these interactions will 
  create RP and TPs." 
Asaf'nor clears his throat, "But what we need are some resources for 
  Houses to compete over. In the original concept for the economy, 
  Houses competed for CHOAM Contracts. I think this is a very good
place 
  to start within the theme of the Duniverse and most of the action
will 
  continue to be centered around contracts. However, I think the system 
  has its shortcomings." 
Asaf'nor says, "In the economic period we played, there was virtually
no 
  competition for contracts. In fact, many were not bid on and 
  eventually given to Houses that did not bid. This, obviously, will
not 
  work to drive TPs. It might still be fun for the CHOAM Directors to
RP 
  divvying things up, but no interaction is promoted elsewhere." 

Boris walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors. 

Asaf'nor says, "As I said, I think a lot of the reason we had so little 
  response to the bidding was that people did not understand or agree
on 
  how things should play out. Still, one cannot say that the market was 
  not saturated. That there were more contracts available than people 
  could use or wanted to use. There are two ways I want to help with 
  this problem." 

An otherworldy voice reminds you all to page Steffan to get on the 
  question/comment queue. 

Asaf'nor points to Alethia, "A question before I continue, Alethia?" 

Alethia says, "Not a question, but a commment, on Dune each planet had 
  resources, not I don't recall if they actually traded upon these 
  economically, but couldn't an idea involving something like this help 
  develope the Home World idea _and_ add to the Econ system?" 

Asaf'nor says, "As the econ stands, each House has a 'Fief Contract.'
It 
  represents the products made by the Homeworld or other parts of a 
  House's fief. Unlike the CHOAM Contracts, you always have it. Other 
  than that, it works just like a CHOAM Contract. I will remember to 
  make a remark when we discuss contracts a little more. Thant OK for 
  now?" 

Alethia nods, "Thank you." 

Asaf'nor says, "Andrei, you had something?" 

Andrei's point is very much like Alethia's to the character. Dune II,
as 
  I recall it, used three diffrent sorts of resources, where you needed 
  one of each, to be able to get "payout". Wouldent it be possible to 
  arrange something like this? Contracts could still pay Solari, but in 
  a less quantity than before. The sucess of the contract, would also 
  determine which kinds of "resources" that would be available on the 
  market. This would increase house interaction, if each house was to
be 
  forced to trade with others to be able to get money. Also, it would 
  also "create" alot of RP for CHOAM representatives, if each trade 
  would force houses to talk at CHOAM. I might have misunderstood how 
  the D2 system worked, but IMO, this could create alot of RP. 

Asaf'nor nods, "Ah yes, Dune II, MUs, CUs, and DUs. I personally did 
  like D2's system in that it demanded interaction, but it always
seemed 
  to boil down to some OOC pages at the end of a period. If people had 
  taken the initiative, it could have been pretty good, but all in all, 
  it was too mechanical. It let people be too lazy, and it was always 
  clear exaclt what you needed to do. Sell x MUs, buy y DUs, etc. There 
  was a conscious effort to try something else here when we formulated 
  the econ. 

Pheibos says, ""hello, what's happening here?"" 

Asaf'nor says, "I should say, Andrei, I'm getting to what I want to use 
  to get more interaction. That good for now?" 

Andrei nods his head. "'course." 

Asaf'nor says, "Back to stimulating interest in contracts, we I think 
  need a more dynamic way to limit a House's capacity to get contracts. 
  The idea that a House should be limited in how many contracts it can 
  handle at once is a sound one. Previously, a House had a certain 
  number of Human Resources (HRs) and each contract required a certain 
  number of them. It was not good if your contracts required more HRs 
  than you had; it hurt profits. Some Houses wanted more contracts, and 
  as I said, we had more available than we needed, but could not 
  effectively use them due to limits on HRs. At the same time, other 
  Houses had more HRs than they felt like using."" 

Mikael mutters to Pheibos, "..." 

Asaf'nor says, "My plan is to make HRs, now renamed Capital Resources 
  (CRs), a commodity. That is, if House Alpha want to buy more 
  contracts, but does not have the CRs, they can purchase them from
say, 
  House Beta, who has more than they can use. CRs will still limit the 
  economic capacity of the Houses, but instead of being static for each 
  House, they will be pretty much static for the MUSH as a whole. They 
  will flow between Houses as the economic tides shift." 

Sha'ara'diin likes that idea. 

Asaf'nor says, "I think an element in the economy is the kind of thing 
  you were talking about, Andrei?" 

Andrei nods. "True. :)" 

Asaf'nor says, "Second, as I mentioned earlier, I think most of us
would 
  agree that tallying up big bank rolls in and of itself is rather 
  boring. Players want something to spend the money on. In the past we 
  had a basic cost for maintaining a House. Now, we will have several 
  maintainace levels. Each has a certain prestige associated with it. 
  Every member of that House will have on their +sheet a line that says 
  how their House spends money. This will reflect on a player's social 
  status." 

Alethia cools. 

Mikael says, "Neat. :)" 

Asaf'nor says, "We will also continue to have (and I know everyone knew 
  we had them ;) Security Levels with various costs associated with 
  each. They will be more clearly implemented. Hopefully, people will 
  use the mentat system more, which is where it really counts." 
Asaf'nor rubs his forehead, "And finially... what people have been 
  begging for, military expenses." 
Asaf'nor says, "Before I say one more word or get a question on
military 
  spending, we have not devised a Warfare System of any kind. We have 
  just set up some ways for Houses to spend on military forces. The 
  system is very simple, yet leaves some room for trying to play it 
  clever. If there is a large enough demand, we can add to it." 
Asaf'nor says, "Here is the quick course. There is a cost associated 
  with maintaining a 'Division' of troops. There are different levels
of 
  training/readiness of a Division. It costs more to maintain Divisions 
  at higher levels. It costs to move a Division up a level. And it
costs 
  to create new Divisions... plus we will cap the number of Divisions 
  sustained and created with CRs, just like for contracts." 
Asaf'nor says, "Question, Sha'ara'ara'ara'diin?" 

Sha'ara'diin hehs, 
Sha'ara'diin says, "Correct me if I am interpreting wrong, but in 
  essense we can create and mantian multiple divisions, but they can be 
  of varying strengths, IE One elite, one or two well trained, then 
  another 2 that are basic conscript types?" 
Sha'ara'diin says, "depending on our resources and spend ratio?" 

Zami walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors. 

Asaf'nor says, "Sorry about the name dig, both of us do know
apostrophes 
  rock, tho'. OK, some more details. I have proposed three levels, 
  Elite, Regulars, and Reserve. Every House has x1, y1, and z1 of each. 
  At the end of each period, the House will have specified how many of 
  each they want to have next period. There will be rules about how
they 
  can be changed (you can only move Divisions one training level per 
  turn, they are only created at the Regular level), and costs 
  associated with the change and the new maintainace costs (in both
cash 
  and CRs)." 

Sha'ara'diin grins 

Asaf'nor says, "I'll take that as indication to move on. Andrei has 
  something to suggest?"" 

Andrei says, "If you guys descide to continue with the contracts
system, 
  then would it be possible to add as a requirement, a certain amount
of 
  troops to govern each contract? The space based construction yards, 
  for example, could require a small, yet very skilled garrison, while
a 
  tourism planet, would need alot _more_ troops, but not of as high 
  training? This would add another requirement for houses, and a new 
  consideration in accepting the contract." 

Asaf'nor says, "I think that is more of a role for CRs to play. I will 
  get to how we are making the Contracts more flexible to include that 
  kind of idea through CRs later. OK?" 

Andrei nods. 

Asaf'nor says, "And Mikael has a question." 

Mikael says, "Yes. What will be the level of involvement of those of us 
  NOT heads of houses?" 
Mikael d'ohs. "I have to go. 
Mikael apologizes. 

Asaf'nor says, "The fact that the condition of your House in the
economy 
  reflects on how others look at you is always there, but we'd like to 
  have everyone more involved thant that. Like my remarks of why we
went 
  way from carbon copying D2, I think what we want is for non-Heads to 
  be the ones sent out to do the negotiating, to do the shmoozing and 
  making connections with other groups. We are going to get away from a 
  coded system where Heads just plug numbers in to OOC commands to 
  register bids." 
Asaf'nor says, "Since I'm on that point, we will be cutting out those 
  commands for bids. The only way to enter a bid for a contract will be 
  to ICly tell a CHOAM official. Hopefully the mere fact you need to be 
  RPing with a CHOAMie to enter a bid will improve the chances of
trying 
  to bribe, threaten, or otherwise influence them." 
Asaf'nor says, "I will not say that that small revision will magically 
  make RP trickle down from the top. Sharing RP within a House has to
be 
  something everyone works at. I don't know of an effective way for the 
  Admin to push that other than just to encourage RP in general." 
Asaf'nor says, "OK, now some details about making Contracts more 
  flexible... or is everyone getting tired after an hour?" 

Sha'ara'diin is all ears. :) 

Steffan smiles, "not at all..." 

Asaf'nor says, "A Contract, whether a CHOAM Contract bid for or a Fief 
  Contract, will have three numbers associated with it, the projected 
  profit, P, the suggested CRs employed, C, and the variability (some 
  may have heard me call it volatility), V. Each has a different 
  influence on the final profit, p, the House gets back." 
Asaf'nor says, "In addition, there is a 'random' factor tossed in. The 
  random factor accounts for the randomness of a real economy. It also 
  is a nice place for the Admin to nudge things. Thus the use of
quotes, 
  it might not be so random. We don't want it to be a secret that the 
  econ will be mildly influenced. If you RP your use of the conract 
  really well, the Admin will nudge it up. If another House sabotages 
  the contract, we can make sure it gets hurt a bit. (All of these will 
  be subject to teh consent policy of course.)" 

Alethia nods. 

Asaf'nor says, "There will of course still be bidding on contracts. The 
  bid will be a minimum of the projected profit and the minimum CHOAM 
  percentage will be constant across most contrcts. A few of the ICly 
  'newer' ones may have higher CHOAM percentage minimums." 
Asaf'nor says, "Sorry that was not clear, the minimum _bid_ will be a 
  percentage of the projected profit and the CHOAM percentage will be 
  the same for most contracts." 
Asaf'nor says, "The actual profit will be proportional to the projected 
  profit plus the vairability multiplied by a function of the CRs used 
  and the random factor. I don't want to give out the exact functional 
  form so someone doesn't go crunch some numbers to figure out how to 
  beat the house." 
Asaf'nor says, "OK, let me layout the sequence of events for an Econ 
  Period... Now this has not been coded, it is not set in stone. I 
  wanted to do this meeting and get some input /before/ all of that..." 

Asaf'nor says, "Remember a period is about 3 RL months. At the begining 
  of a period, the House has found out which contracts they have won
and 
  which they did not get. They also found out how their profits from
the 
  pervious turn came through. The Houses have about one RL month to set 
  how they want to assign resources for the _current_ period. That is, 
  they need to figure out where to get CRs from for their contracts or 
  who they can sell them to for the best price or whatever deal they
can 
  get. Since we are locking in the CRs for contracts, a House has to 
  decide if they need to hold some aside for military purposes, but 
  military changes are not final yet. Now that the House has locked in 
  resources for the period, they have the rest of the time to work on 
  how they are going to get what they want for next period. The
military 
  or the next period must be locked in by the end of the second month. 
  Finally, the last month is just left to getting in bids and wheeling 
  and dealing. Then the Directors meet in private and assign contracts. 
  The Shareholders meet, at which time, the actual profits are
announced 
  for each contract. The econ is cycled with all of the numbers for
bank 
  accounts, spending levels, and contracts changed." 
Asaf'nor hrms, "Well, I guess Nestor couldn't wait with his
question..." 

Steffan nods 

Asaf'nor says, "Well, guys, I'm getting pretty typed out here. I lot my 
  way in my notes here and think I'm just going to have to fall back on 
  questions and comments... Oh, one more thing!" 
Asaf'nor says, "I'd like to get the discussion that will arise from
this 
  seminar, my posts on the BBS, or to email lists out of the way by the 
  end of the week. Then I want to devote the rest of the month to 
  getting this in place. I will need _lots_ of coorperation from the 
  Houses for that. The system will be made /intentionally/ unbalanced. 
  Some Houses will have lots of CRs they can't use, others will have
way 
  too few. But the ones with lots of CRs might have a slow fief
contract 
  and need an influx of cash to make realistic bids for contracts and
to 
  keep up their standard of living. I'd like to work on getting the 
  numbers to balance (i.e. keep Houses incomes about equal to 
  expenditures) and getting the coded systems in place to access all of 
  this new information in the next few weeks. After that, we'll need to 
  figure out how to slide into the new system." 
Asaf'nor says, "OK, questions, comments, anyone know any good jokes?" 
Asaf'nor says, "Zami, you have some obvious question to shatter my
house 
  of cards?" 

Steffan grins 

Zami chuckles, "not really... I don't know if you covered it already... 
  but until the system comes online, what would you see the Houses
doing 
  with Econ... and will they continue to have CHOAM meetings?" 

Asaf'nor says, "OOCly, I see a lot of work for figuring how we want 
  Houses to fit together to make them interdependent. ICly, I think we 
  can have this in motion for the end of the next cycle. As for audits 
  and searches for leaks from the Directors, this should have little 
  impact." 
Asaf'nor says, "And when I say 'next' cycle, I of course mean this 
  cycle. ;)" 

Mikael bows to everyone. "I'm back. Is the seminar still going on?" 

Asaf'nor says, "No, we're having a Tupperware Party now." 

Mikael says, "ooooo!" 
Mikael says, "I want one of those big five gallon tub things." 
Mikael says, "blue, please." 

Sha'ara'diin says, "when does this next cycel end?" 
Sha'ara'diin says, "cycle too." 

Asaf'nor listesn to the chirping crickets in the background just sure 
  everyone is just waiting to run out and buy some 3L33T AR//EEZ!!11 
Asaf'nor oops, "AR/\/\EEZ!!11" 

Mikael says, "what?" 
Mikael says, "Eleet Armeez?" 
Mikael slaps Asaf'nor for acting like an 3L33+ 2 K3WL haX0r. 

Asaf'nor says, "I'm thinking we can have the new system working if we 
  end the period end-Feb, begining of March." 

Sha'ara'diin nodsin understanding. 

Asaf'nor says, "That gives the rest of the month here to get the OOC 
  stuff out of the way and February to /hopefully/ get some RP in on
the 
  period and work out the bugs we find." 

Mikael says, "crap, i have to go again. O_o" 

Asaf'nor says, "I'd like to hear any well thought out suggestions
anyone 
  may have. You don't need to be a House head. I'd also be interested
in 
  hearing about other MUSH macro economies. However, I think we should 
  save it for private conversations, +mail, or the email lists. So on 
  that note, unless there are any brief questons or comments?" 

Asaf'nor says, "OK, thanks for listening. Remeber this is a _proposed_ 
  system, we'd like more ideas and cunstructive criticisms." 

==
Asaf'nor @ DuneIII MUSH           Code and Building Admin
Crist Clark                            asaf_nor@yahoo.com

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com