Econ Meeting #1 10/12/99

[Car <wahye@yahoo.com>]

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Petra looks innocent, "Who? Me?"

Zami says, "okay... starting up log..."

Announcement: Zami shouts, "We're about to start the OOC meeting."

Shirin tries to think of an appropriate 10-line-pose for finding a seat

Boris walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.
Boris has arrived.
Boris hurries in. "Damned rickshaw."

Petra laughs.

Mikhail says, "eh?"

Hasan gives Boris a noogie. "Ya big lug."

Zami says, "Thanks for coming everyone... I'm going to try to make this as simple as possible to leave the most time for questions because I'm missing Angel for this... :("

Shirin shakes her head.

Justine walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.
Justine has arrived.

Mikhail waves to Justine.

Iason waves.

Justine waves with a smile and then fades into the background

Sin'Vaari walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.
Sin'Vaari has arrived.

Mikhail grabs a pillow and props himself up in a corner "Wish I could have done this at the Imperial court llast friday...been a lot more interesting."

Volker walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.
Volker has arrived.

Hasan says, "The girl just killed the guy from the bar, Zami."

Zami says, "As many of you know, DuneIII is based on a Macro Economics system... which means, we don't have idividual accounts/money to spend. Rather it's assumed that if you're here, you've got enough money to probably meet your basic needs easily."

Justine snatches the pillow away from Mikhail and then baps him with it, "Shhhhhh!"

Zami says, "In the past... the econ system has only dealt with the contracts... for those unfamilar with the contracts, type +contrats/list"

Zami says, "+contract/list... sorry... jumpy fingers."

Zami says, "it has always been the intention that we have a more interactive Macro system... so that's what we're moving towards now..."

Zami says, "each of the contracts require a certain amount of Resources, we've called 'HR's...."

Zami says, "the contract needs to accumilate the # of HRs to produce the expected profits..."

Zami says, "Each house has a certain amount of HRs that they can "spend" on various contracts in hopes to earn some of the profit when the contracts close at the end of the cycle..."

Zami says, "Now... to put that in more layman terms..."

Zami says, "Each contract requires men to work in the fields, gather the crops, etc... kinda like the spice miners we see in Dune..."

Boris says, "Slaves."

Zami says, "In the book, Leto had to make deals, pay a couple of worker/unions to keep them about after the Harkonnens drew out... those workers/unions represent our HRs here..."

Boris says, "Only a Bajazet would pay for what one could get for free with an inkvine whip."

Zami grins.

Mikhail glares as Boris...

Shirin says, "NPCs?"

Boris shushes himself.

Zami says, "a bit beyond that... more like pheasants that we would probably never see."

Mikhail says, "Semi Inteligent NPC's?"

Justine places duck tape over Boris' mouth ;)

Mikhail says, "I've seen code like that used on other MU"

Shirin notes that thansgiving is coming ;)

Mikhail says, "But I dont think it would work with a Macro Based System si I'll be silent now."

Zami smiles... "well... that a potential that might come out in RP...

Zami says, "the houses all have some amount of "man power"... the HRs... they chose to disperse them through other contracts (or stick with their own)..."

Zami says, "the Rp comes in what is the cost for your house to invest in another House's contract... what do you gain out of it... I'll leave it at that let you come up with the possibilities."

Mikhail says, "Does the Econ System in anyway Benefit or Enhance the RP of the Majority of the players on the MUSH?"

Shirin says, "Are the admins going to control the unions and strikes and rates n stuff?"

Zami says, "it depends on how the House wishes to play the system... if a house chooses to just push number and commands, then no."

Mikhail says, "Couldnt it be left soely to RP? It seems to me a way of merely keeping track of shares and contract which is better served through Pure RP?"

Zami says, "I wish that were so Mikhail... that was how the system was setup and has existed since the start of the game until now... and since that times we've only turned econ over once."

Mikhail says, "As a MU* Admin myself I've tried a few different types of Econ, and found that no matter how nicely coded they are players like to RP it more than use commands..."

Mikhail says, "So the System takes up Space in the DB better used for somthing else."

Mikhail says, "Not to Insult or imply anything about anyone..."

Mikhail says, "But in Geral RP that is the day to day goings on, I've not really seen it used implied or otherwise..."

Zami says, "I agree with you Mikhail... at the same time, what is the meaning of the contract... how do we know it is doing well or not... and how do we RP off of that... for those that don't require it, they can continue to RP the Econ... but for others, and it takes all types of players, this gives them some reference to go off of..."

Mikhail says, "Hpw can a Sysytrm Determine it better than RP?"

Mikhail says, "Ahh"

Mikhail says, "That was mangled"

Zami says, "it's okay... understood."

Mikhail says, "How can the System tell weather a contract does well or not? Isnt that handled in RP?"

Zami says, "is it?"

Zami says, "have you RP'ed the status of the Ecaz contract lately?"

Mikhail says, "I'm new to Rastanyev and Josef hasnt been Around Much Zami..."

Mikhail says, "So to answer you, no, but nor has your system bothered to tell me how well it was doing."

Ivanova says, "We started to awhile ago but never got very far."

Iason says, "Translation: Mikhail's gathering information?"

Mikhail says, "Translation: Mikhail hates inactive Faction HEads."

Zami says, "ah... it does through profits."

Zami says, "each contract is set to earn a supposed average..."

Zami says, "what it actually earns can vary and can help give a marker of how things are going."

Mikhail says, "How's that determined though> from what i've read Productivity can go down only if asked by the Contract Controller?"

Mikhail says, "Which means it has to be RP'd."

Zami says, "productivity is not the same as profit..."

Mikhail says, "They ared tied togther in some way, If workers are less productive, you make less profit."

Zami says, "your productivity could be high one year and yet a swarm of locus attack your pudi rice fields... ie, bad luck."

Mikhail says, "Right"

Mikhail says, "But how is it Determined?"

Zami says, "how is luck determined?"

Mikhail says, "The Productivity of a Contract?"

Mikhail says, "I still dont really see how the Econ System is used here other than a list keeper."

Zami says, "productivity=how much you invest (hrs) you put towards the contract."

Assaf walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.
Assaf has arrived.

Mikhail nods.

Zami says, "i understand Mikhail... ideally, we wouldn't need a system... and at the same time, in a Dune universe, we'd see contracts changing hands, houses vying for the contract... people trying to position themselves."

Mikhail says, "Right, If it was all done by your Econ System there would be no need to RP at all..."

Shirin says, "This is just to throw some randomness into the profitability of the system, right?"

Mikhail says, "But fundamentally all this system does it track Numbers?"

Shirin says, "via having to deal with worker unions n such?"

Boris says, "I think the system is not an end in itself Mik. People understand it's an excuse to rp, to spark other venues for rp ."

Zami nods to Shirin.

Boris says, "And to help arbitrate squabbles over who is richer than who. Right now, it's all cops and robbers arbitration."

Petra says, "It seems to me like at the very least, this will give players something that they can all look at to see the status of the various contracts, and use that to generate TPs. It's a lot harder to develop good RP, when you don't share the same 'big picture' of what's going on with the people that you're RPing with."

Mikhail says, "Perhaps."

Mikhail says, "But who are we RPing with say if we were to RP the Ecaz Contract?...NPC's?"

Hasan adds to Boris' comment, "Unlike determining who is cooler. In that, the Pony-eaters win hands down."

Shirin says, "Will everyone know if some House has contract issues/problems with workers?"

Zami says, "other houses MIkhail."

Hasan says, "In House, too. I guess."

Zami says, "they will see the results of those actions Shirin... and they can see if a house doesn't gather enough resources to even keep the contract going."

Zami nods to Hasan, "it could... as I said, there are many potentials to be RP'ed out. I'd rather not force any of my ideas onto people around that."

Shirin says, "Are the admins going to keep track of the workers needs and basically RP unions and such? is that more work for the Admins?"

Zami shakes her head to Shirin, "that's what the new system handles for us Shirin.

Shirin hmms.

Mikhail says, "How?"

Petra says, "Well..to take the status of the Ecaz contract as an example: Depending on how it's doing, it might make your house temporarily richer or poorer than usual. It might make you more desperate...or it might make you flush with cash. Any of these situations can lead to interesting RP with other houses as they attempt to take advantage of your weakness or strength in that regard...So it can lead to ideas for RP, even if they're not directly involved with the details a particular contract."

Zami says, "the HRs."

Mikhail says, "I know that."

Mikhail says, "But the HR's are Numbers of People you have working? How does it tell you how the Workers are feeling, their mood for instance, are they so opressed bty Harkonnen Butchery that they are ready to revolt at any moment?"

Shirin says, "But, Petra, aren't the statuses of House contracts not always public, I mean, for instance the Harkonnens cooking the books on the Arrakis fief in the first book, and their stockpiles of melange... how are other Houses to know whether they can take advantage of a House?""

Sin'Vaari walks to the south and passes through the Double Doors.
Sin'Vaari has left.

Boris wants to know why everyone keeps talking about Harkonnen.:)

Shirin smirks.

Mikhail says, "Cuz we like to poke fun at you."

Justine grins, "Because you're special" ;)

Boris likes Justine's answer and names a planet after her.

Justine hides the pearls and goes back to listening.

Justine beams a smile and curtsies

Shirin says, "I guess some of issues with contracts could be put on the rumor boards"

Boris says, "Actually, Shirin, I think that's a tweak to the system we can work in later. Lacking an intelligence gathering system I think we must all assume perfect knowledge."

Zami says, "Mikhail... this sytem isn't meant to replace RP... you would know those things just as you would IRL, you'd have to do some investigation, some interprelation... and perhaps some spy work. No Econ system is going to give you that... does our stock system now tell us how competent the workers at Microsoft are?"

Justine thinks the products speak for themselves, Zami ;)

Zami says, "Exactly."

Justine acks as she gets the blue screen of death! ;)

Shirin says, "Silly MS Semuta 2000 users. Just don't get it, do ya?"

Ivanova :P

Mikhail says, "N'kee '99 all they way..."

Zami smiles.

Mikhail says, "Anyhow, I'm not going to comment of the Incompetency of Microsoft Regardless of how well their stock does."

Boris has disconnected.

Shirin points to the hole boris has left, "see?" :)

Zami smiles.

Justine watches Boris disconnect and then mutters quietly under her breath, "Wuss"

Petra has disconnected.

Hasan yawns. "No more interuppting. I have some ts with Umar to get to."

Shirin says, "Is morale of the workers/HRs random?"

Justine laughs at Hasan!

Volker laughs.

Zami says, "the randomness is in how the contract does... the reason for the randomness will vary from situation to situation based on rumors, which house, what's going on... essentially how we interpret the results."

Mikhail looks at Hasan

Zami says, "the point is not to take away from RP but to give it something to go off of."

Mikhail hmms

Mikhail says, "Anyhow, Night folks..."

Zami says, "Night."

Hasan wavies.

Justine waves

Justine says, "Night Mikky"

Iason awves.

Assaf says, "Bye"

Vittorio walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.
Vittorio has arrived.

Zami says, "is there anything else folks would like to pummel me with?"

Shirin says, "Is this stuff going to be on the website?"

Vittorio assumes he just came in at the tail end of things?

Zami nods and sorries Vittorio.

Zami says, "Yes... this log, the econ manual... and a page from someone suggested an FAQ... which I"ll work on this weekend."

Zami says, "I'm always available for questions/answers if you want to bother me some time after this meeting..."

Vittorio says, "All I care about is that the Econ Guide on the Web Site is in agreement with all policies and whatnot that are enacted on the MUSH. That there be uniform enforcement of all guidelines as are published in the Guide."

Zami nods, "that should be updated this weekend as well to refect the new commands and fill in the section that has been missing around... either security or military... can't remember which at the moment.

Zami says, "anything else?"

Hasan says, "Um. I must have not been paying attention"

Justine baps Hasan, "Don't be rude"

Hasan says, "Hasn't this been the econ sys before? Or have I just been reading the new help files this whole time?"

Assaf heads back to the IC world of Dune III.
Assaf has left.

Hasan says, "Rude is my character trait. :) I have trouble with OOC/IC."

Zami says, "well... a good deal of this new system was mapped out about 5 months ago by Asaf'nor. We've just worked it to completion now."

Justine will straighten you out

Hasan says, "OK. I think I am up to date, then."

Zami nods.

Steffan has left.

Vittorio says, "We are going to do the 20% rule?"

Justine has left.

Hasan hehs.

Hasan huhs?, too.

Vittorio says, "I remember reading that you cannot purchase more then 20% of your HR's?"

Zami says, "IC'ly yes... OOC'ly, it's assumed to have already been accounted for."

Volker has disconnected.

Zami says, "there's a limit that will prevent you from cashing out all of your HRs."

Vittorio says, "How is there a different between IC and OOC with regards to this issue?"

Zami says, "it's already been accounted for by the starting number of the HRs a house has."

Garrett has disconnected.

Vittorio nods his head, "Right. If House A has 50 HR's, they will only ever be able to get 60 HR's out into contracts before they start suffering major penalties according to the thingie. That means that all Houses are not created equal as far as economic potential. That's fine, but is there a way to increase your Houses's base HR value, if that is the case?

Vittorio says, "Err... Bad math, not 60."

Zami says, "to some extent there is... you can try to spend more money, solaris in purchasing more HR units... you can also try to divest your own Home world's HRs for a cost."

Vittorio says, "62.5."

Zami doesn't want to talk about math tonight... she couldn't do a simple subtraction for Shirin earlier.

Shirin smiles.

Vittorio says, "If there a way to increase your base HR's?"

Vittorio says, "Err...Is there a way ."

Vittorio just thinks that it is pointless for House A, with a base of 50 HR's to even attempt to compete with House B, with 75 HR's, if there is no way to increase your base HR's.

Zami says, "contracts."

Vittorio says, "But you can't get the contracts if you don't have the HR's to cover them."

Shirin says, "I suppose you could bribe, etc."

Shirin says, "no?"

Vittorio says, "But that's not built into the mechanics of the system."

Zami says, "that is the part that's changing Vittorio."

Shirin says, "And if you allied with a house, could you borrow/buy some of the HRs from them?"

Zami says, "an individual house doesn't need to be the sole possessor of the HRs, HRs can be dispersed over other contracts."

Vittorio says, "No, part is changing Vittorio. Vittorio is staying exactly as he is. :) (Sorry, that was a poor attempt at levity.)"

Zami :P and throws a comma at ya... ;)

Vittorio says, "You can take the extra comma from my own statement."

Vittorio says, "Ok.."

Vittorio says, "Let me get this straight, because either I don't understand something, or there is a basic noncompetitiveness inherent in this system."

Hasan says, "So, investing HR's in other people's contracts is the new part?"

Zami nods to Hasan.

Vittorio says, "Ok.."

Hasan waits for Vitto. "I have a follow-up, then I'll leave you alone.

Vittorio says, "Let us have three Houses, A, B, and C. If A bids on a contract, but does not have the HR's to cover that contract, they can appeal to ally House B to cover those HR's. These external HR's from House B DO NOT COUNT TOWARD THE 20 LIMIT TO PURCHASE OF HR'S BEFORE SUFFERING PENALTIES? So, if House C was able to cover the contract with their own HR's, they would be in comptetion with the joint venture of Houses A and B?"

Vittorio says, "That 20 should be 20%"

Hasan says, "Can I follow up, now?"

Zami says, "let's let Hasan follow-up and then I'll cover Vitt's statement... okay?"

Vittorio says, "Sure."

Hasan says, "Oh. Never mind. I can wait. I thought that was Zami. :S"

Zami says, "okay..."

Zami says, "actually... it's a bit different than that..."

Hasan notes that Vitto is very authoritative-sounding, though.

Zami says, "House A and C bid on a contract... they vie to prove to the directors that they can churn a profit on the contract without a problem... the HRs they possess might be taken into account... however, they can also bargin and deal with other houses once they have the contract to acquire HRs from other houses... thus the HRs is not the only consideration in a bid."

Mikhail has left.

Vittorio nods, "Alright, but what about actually making the profit?"

Hasan raises his hand.

Vittorio says, "The HR's put toward the contract are directly related to that, yes?"

Zami nods.

Hasan says, "Has each House been given more HR's? It was my understanding that there were not enoughin the system to make any contract profitable."

Hasan thinks that kinda fits with Vitto's question.

Vittorio wishes he had a whiteboard, a conference room, and a mess of first class tickets on a 747 to some place that we might all be able to actually get together to work this out.

Hasan says, "That there were not enough before, I mean"

Zami says, "actually... before they didn't really come into play at all."

Zami says, "and to answer your question, no each house has not been given more HRs... the options to purchase HRs is available... as well as there are some HRs that lay with groups who do not owe contracts, such as the Corrino."

Vittorio says, "The only thing that I am concerned with is that if there is a cap on the amount of money a House can generate in profits in an given term, the various variables that lead to the definition of that cap be uniform across all Houses. One house might have more HR's, and another may have good ties to smugglers, or something like that, but as long as the economic potential of each house is equal, or has the capability to become at least equal, I'm happy."

Zami says, "I can't assure that Vittorio... it will depend upon how Houses chose to play things out... if it is RP'ed (though I highly doubt this would happen) that a single House were to capture all the contracts... then it's going to happen... as long as there's a legitimate IC action and RP that correspond to it."

Vittorio says, "If I buy another planet, do I get more HR's?"

Zami says, "if you win another contract you receive more HRs."

Vittorio is now copmletely confused.

Zami hmmms.

Vittorio says, "What is an HR?"

Hasan baps the guido.

Hasan smiles.

Vittorio says, "No, seriously, I may have a fundemental misunderstanding of this. I want to make sure I have the basics right."

Zami says, "it stands for Human Resource... essentially a unit of men and the money you're putting into those men to keep them around."
Vittorio nods, "Ok. So, how does getting a new contract increase my HR's?"

Vittorio says, "I would think that it would /decrease/ my HR's, and I would have to put manpower toward that contract."

Vittorio says, "Wait... Or is that to represent the people in the factories? For example, if I got Frena, additional HR's would represent the people already working in those foactories?"

Zami says, "because there are people who live and are part of the contract... recall in Dune, when the Atreides took over Arrakis, the departure of the Harkonnen didn't leave Arrakis suddenly devoid of all people."

Shirin says, "Do planets, etc. already have their own HR units?"

Hasan raises his hand, and adds. "Where is a list of the HR's the come with and are needed for each contract? I tried to figure this all out in Aug, but apparently could only find how many HR's we had, and how many came with the contracts. Not how many they required.

Vittorio nods, "Ok. Now I understand that a little better."

Zami says, "Hasan, +contract/list"

Vittorio says, "So, the minimum HR's to cover a contract come with the contract, the base HR's that a house has are extra, and are allocated to various contracts to make even more money off of them, yes?"

Zami says, "Shirin, at the moment, a House receives HRs from their own Fief and it's shown in their status."

Zami says, "no."

Vittorio slumps.

Zami says, "You're close... I'm trying to use the book as much as possible to illustrate what's happening... recall that when Atreides took over Arrakis, some of the workers pulled out and others had to be brought from Caladan to fill in."

Vittorio nods, "Yes?"

Zami says, "thus... you can count on some % of the workers to stay with a contract, the HRs you receive when you win the big, but others will leave and you will need to replace them, the HRs you'll be having to add in addition."

Hasan says, "OK. When you get a chance: what are the HR's in the column on contract/list? HRs that come with a contract or that are needed for it?"

Zami says, "HRs that come with the contract."

Hasan says, "Where is the required number of HR's listed?"

Zami says, "At the moment we're using the CHOAM shares to represent that number."

Hasan says, "Ahhh. That's where I screwed up."

Shirin whistles

Shirin says, "wow, arrakis is high-maintenance ;)"

Zami nods.

Hasan says, "Good googlie-moogily! That's alot of HR's needed."

Zami nods, "I can assure you though there are enough HRs in the system to cover that... "

Zami says, "and the conditions on arrakis aren't exactly pleasant enough to make people want to stay for very cheap wages."

Hasan says, "The shares are the total needed, right? Not the total after the HR column is counted?"

Zami says, "right... the HR column isn't automatically assumed to be part of that #."

Hasan says, "OK"

Hasan says, "And a House has the fief contract and Company contract shares available to invest?"

Zami nods.

Hasan says, "Thank you."

Hasan says, "Angel was kinda disappointing"

Zami says, "back to the topic... anything else?"

Vittorio is ok, I think.

Hasan hmms and looks around for something to bother. "Yeh, I'm fine."

Zami nods.

Zami says, "If folks don't mind... I'll go ahead and close this meeting then."

Zami says, "if you come up with more questions, please feel free to drop me a line..."

Vittorio nods.

Zami says, "and we'll be doing this again so that others will know what's going on as well... probably earlier in the day to catch the European guys this time.""