Protocol Seminar Log!

["Kathie Care" <kathie@availablelight.net>]

10/14/2001

Auditorium -- Lower Level (OOC)

A small auditorium with steeply rising seats surrounds the podium. At the podium
is a lectern for the speaker and a leather chair for the moderator.

Players:

 Ruhail                                             Elsa

 Tazra's Mobile Listener                            Smurf

 Galen                                              Martin

 Marco                                              Caro

 Erich                                              Tazra

 Augie                                              Ylara

Objects:

 README FIRST

Exits:

 Double Doors <S> leads to Lower Lobby -- Lower Level (OOC)

Lilith is about to join your location.

Lilith has arrived.

Smurf has left.

Tazra's Mobile Listener has left.

Smurf has arrived.

Tazra drops Smurf.

Lilith says, "Is everyone here...?"

Layard walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Layard has arrived.

Emylie walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Emylie has arrived.

Smurf has left.

Emylie waves.

Layard says, "Sorry if we are late...We had to finish up a scene."

Emylie whispers to Layard, "You forgot to button... Oh!"

Emylie says, "Just kidding."

Galen is now set 'Out-of-Character.'

Ylara wiats quietly

Lilith grins. "Quite alright Layard, Emylie, welcome! I think we'll give a few
more folks a couple more minutes to hop on up.... meanwhile... let me get my
notes in order here..."

Emylie takes the empty seat next to Caro.

Antiochus has arrived.

Tazra sits in back

Emylie waves

Tazra waves back

Antiochus has left.

Sveena walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Sveena has arrived.

Lilith takes her place, and taps on the mic. "I guess it wouldn't be very polite
of me if I didn't start things off, first and foremost, with a big 'welcome!'
and a 'thanks!'. Tonight's little get-together is all about Protocol, and
Diplomacy, and I think we'll go ahead and jump right on into it. Most of my
comments I've scripted out in advance, but I've planned for discussion areas for
us, too, so, do keep your eyes open -- I won't be talking at you for the entire
session here today. And I **promise** I will not quote the entire Protocol guide
at you!"

Lilith says, "And, speaking of audience participation... your comments and
questions are absolutely welcome, but outside of the times when I've opened up
the floor for discussion, please do page Galen to get into the queue for your
question or comment."

Elsa applauds politely and looks sideways for a moment.

Lilith pokes Galen. "Psst... you awake there?"

Lilith grins. "So, now that the fine print is out of the way, here we go! I'm
calling this session 'Protocol and Diplomacy: Don't Leave Home Without It'."

Lilith says, "While we're warming up... would anyone care to take a stab at
explaining what the difference is between protocol, and etiquette? Or how are
they the same? Why do they go hand in hand? (this is... free-form discussion...
no need to spam Galen to death... yet...)"

Ylara says, "May I attempt?"

Lilith nods. "Please do, Ylara.."

Ylara says, "Ok Well Protocol is more the form of useing set guidlines when
dealign with toehrs on a very political basis. It would be best exmapled as in
what all are expected to do when in court and dealing with the emperor."

Lilith nods.

Lilith says, "And etiquette...?"

Ylara says, "Etiquette is the use of proper mannors and a show of respest for
others. It would like a harkonnen would show a cold like for an Ateidies when
meeting to discuss difference that the hosues may need to agree on."

Ylara says, "Sorry for the short version."

Elsa would like to add without attempting to spam : "That means that is it is
proper manners for anybody to spit on the floor when visiting the Harkonnen, for
example, that also is considered good etiquette, although bad elsewhere."

Lilith nods. "Ok... To put that a little differently, then... By definition,
protocol is the code of conduct, the forms of ceremony and etiquette observed by
diplomats and nobility in a society where such rites and details are law.
Etiquette, however, is the mark of fine breeding, and education. It is what
labels one as belonging to the upper levels of the faufreluches. Without
etiquette, there would hardly be any protocol."

Shane walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Shane has arrived.

Lilith says, "Ok... now this one's a little harder. Can anyone define what the
faufreluches is?"

Layard says, "I can, if I may."

Lilith nods. "Sure thing, Layard.."

Layard says, "Well, it is basically the ridgid rule of caste distinction within
the Imperium. The whole idea is based upon the quote...and I am trying to
remember the Dune Glossary...'A place for every man and a man in every place.'"

Lilith nods, "Precisely, Layard! The Faufreluches is a complex feudal order, and
the prevailing social order of the Imperium.. basically, as Layard said.. a
caste system."

Ruhail says, "But not without some measure of upward mobility."

Lilith says, "True... but it depends on the Emperor's mood on the day the
request for that shiny new title lands in front of him..."

Erich winks and nods sagaciously. ;)

Lynna walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Lynna has arrived.

Tazra wonders and writes in a notepad

Lilith mutters something quietly about temperamental stiff-necked royalty, and
continues, "If you have not already done so, I would highly recommend that you
all be familiar with the faufreluches and who falls where. It is reasonable to
expect that folks would be educated pretty much in detail on it, and you should
know without a doubt where you fall on the pyramidal structure in relation to
someone else. Those who are really well educated would be able to look at
someone from another culture, and tell by their dress and mannerisms where they
fall in the faufreluches. You see, it's the faufreluches which sets the pecking
order, and without the faufreluches, we would have no need for protocol, and no
need for etiquette."

Erich says, "For instance, he refused the Venhei their title for a while
precisely because he didn't like Bulova, plain and simple. Was tough noogies for
them, but c'est la vie in the Padishah Imperium."

Sveena walks to the south and passes through the Double Doors.

Sveena has left.

Lilith nods to Erich. "I seem to recall other instances of requests for titles
being put aside... simply due to plain annoyance..."

Shane notes I still don't have mine simply cause I thought I was bieng funny :-)
Bad to piss off the emperor.

Ruhail says, "Ahh, the vaunted Imperial whim."

Tazra raises her hand to ask a questiom

Ophelia ooopses quietly. "I knew I forgot something."

Erich nods. "Yep. Such is a good example of how protocol and etiquette are of
utmost importance. Piss off someone important, and you're either dead or
immediately shoved to the bottom of the totem pole."

Lilith says, "Yes, Tazra?"

Tazra says, "so the faufreluches is basicly the "ranking system of the
imperium?"

Layard does not mean to rush up the scrolling here, "Yes. It reminds me of that
old British axiom used during the feudal ages. The Emperor promises to protect
all. The Dukes promise to protect the king. The Barons promise to protect the
Dukes...so on and so on and so on."

Lilith nods to Tazra. "The game files go into great detail on the faufreluches,
and that's at 'ICInfo Faufreluches.' They are also covered in the new Protocol
and Diplomacy Handbook, which is posted to the DuneIII web site."

Tazra says, "thanks."

(OOC) Layard says, "Err not the Emperor...King I am sorry..."

Lilith says, "Do we have any last questions or comments on this topic... or are
we ready to move on?"

Elsa says, "I do have a question"

Lilith says, "Shoot, Elsa.."

Tazra pulls out a lasgun

Erich says, "Please stop with the spam, Tazra. Thanks. :)"

Elsa says, "As someone's standing in the Faufreluches is defined in various
ways, does the higher standing count as the valid one when someone holds more
positions in various areas ? Like, a noble priest ? His nobility ovverrules the
priestly 'class'' he would hold ?"

Lilith says, "Oooh... good question..."

Erich lifts his hand, and could attempt an answer?

Lilith says, "I would say... ok, Erich can answer..."

Erich says, "The higher title/distinction always holds precedent. Many would
have multiple titles, Count of This and Duke of That, but it is the most
elevated/distinguished that they are known by, and treated in the bounds of the
faufreluches."

Lilith nods. "What I was going to say. Ylara has a comment..? Do go ahead.
That'll be the last one before we move on to the next topic. We can always
revisit any questions or comments you had at the end. Please keep them handy!"

Ruhail reconnects. Be /right/ back.

Ruhail has disconnected.

Elsa says, "Thank you."

Ylara says, "Actually Erich did take my comment well enough not to add to it.
:)"

Lilith says, "Actually, I'll let one more in then. Layard? Then that one really
is the last on this section..."

Layard nods, "Yes I was going to add on to what Erich said. Some times nobles
have what are basically courtesy titles. Such as me...I have a courtesy title by
the name of 'Most Pious Lord' which was inherited by me from a staunch Orange
Catholic Great Grandfather. Even though it is a long title...it doesn't do
anything. Its glitter that looks good on paper basically, but it does not give
me much power when it comes to Court issues."

Erich says, "Money and Power talk, and BS walks, to wit. :)"

Layard says, "Basically."

Lilith nods. "Good questions, great comments, everyone... moving right along....
Next topic: the Imperial Presence..."

Lilith winks. "I can hear you oooh-ing and aaah-ing already. But seriously, this
is an important section. No pressure or anything, but... there is nowhere else
on Kaitain where a blunder in protocol and etiquette could possibly cause such a
stir, or even so much trouble. (And, as mentioned in Ophelia's RP101 seminar,
trouble can be a good thing -- don't forget that it is ok to lose, or be in
trouble. It can be quite fun, actually, to try and weasel your way out of a
tight situation without losing too much in the long run.)"

Lilith says, "So... what exactly is the Imperial Presence, anyway? It refers to
a space one is never to enter, leave, cross, or otherwise breach in any way
without express permission when in audience or court with the Emperor. As an
example, for court, this area would be the dais, the area immediately in front
of the throne, and the central walkway leading up to the throne from the
entrance of the Selamlik."

Lilith says, "There are three big, big, big (did I say big?) no-no's when in the
Imperial Presence..."

Lilith says, "Don't turn your back on the Emperor. When you've finished your say
in front of him, after an audience, you should back away carefully. This is
interesting for those watching, because you never know when a heel might catch
on a rug and someone might fall on their bum in front of the man up on the
throne. Oh, did I say that out loud? Sorry. Anyways, backing away. Yes, back
away a few steps, and then turn to get back to your place, or the door,
whichever you prefer after your basting, er, I mean, audience."

Lilith wiggles her eyebrows.

Lilith says, "Next... Don't expect to hand anything directly to the Emperor,
either. Nothing is ever handed directly to him. A page, or Noukker, will take
whatever it is from you to hand to him. It's that personal space thing, the
Imperial Presence. The man likes his space. But all joking aside, it's also a
security issue, too. If you're handing off a bomb, someone else will take the
hit, theoretically."

Ruhail has connected.

Lilith says, "And last, but certainly not least..."

Lilith says, "It is the single greatest breach of manners and protocol to look
the Emperor directly in the eyes. Gazes should remain lowered at all times, and,
depending upon one's station, that point would be somewhere between one's own
feet, a space between there and the Emperor's feet, or at the Emperor's feet. An
even bolder focal point would be at a medal or other object on the Emperor's
person."

Lilith grins. "I mean, he's handsome and all, and he does have a nice twinkle in
his eyes, but... just don't go there. So... any questions at this point? Don't
forget to page Galen to get into the queue..."

Erich chuckles and winks. "Flattery will get you everywhere, Lil."

Lilith says, "Oyes. And speaking of.. Erich, you're first with a question or
comment."

Erich says, "Yep. I just wanted to echo you, and stress just how ... dangerous
it can be to do anything to slight the Emperor. :) While you are in Court, and
arguably anywhere on Kaitain though some would throw a fit at the suggestion,
you can be arrested/tried/executed/tortured without recourse or trial unless
you're a Siridar. Court in particular is a very public place, and the slightest
diminishment of the Imperial presence would result in dire consequences. There
have been 'casualties' in the past in those who have dared to offend His
Majesty. One of our most blue-blooded Corrinos, in particular, was publically
executed for just a slight, flippant comment to the Emperor."

Lilith noddles. "Good point. Next... Galen."

Galen has a question as to how the handling of gifts, "As you mentioned all
gifts will be transfered to the Emperor via a Noukker or page boy. How should
that be handled in a pose? Should the person pose the hand off themselves or
wait for either the Emperor or Emperess to do so?"

Lilith is going to ask Erich to answer that one... I think it's mostly a
personal preference type thing..

Erich says, "Go ahead and pose it being handled to a Noukker. If it's a box or
something covered or obscure, make it known in the pose what is uncovered."

Galen nods.

Erich says, "But I must stress, that you're only authorized to pose Noukkers to
the extent of receiving and displaying the gift, handing it to the
Emperor/Empress if it checks out safe. They're dangerous NPCs. :)"

Lilith nods. "Alrighty then... I think the next person in the queue was Tazra?"

Tazra says, "What if your house's point of view, disagrees with the emperor's,
what would be a good way to persent your argument (or would it be wise to even
present it at all) and address him without bieng slain immediatly or exiled?"

Shane laffs.

Ylara has disconnected.

Emylie has disconnected.

Lilith says, "There are all sorts of outlets for a disagreement in principles
with the Emperor... one of them being the Landsraad, or discourse amongst your
fellow house members. But to basically tell him he's wrong? Not a good idea."

Emylie has connected.

Lilith says, "That would be one of those 'career-limiting moves'."

Tazra says, "thats what I thought so dont bring it up in hus presence correct?"

Lilith says, "Not unless you are authorized to speak on behalf of your house."

Tazra says, "ok. thanks"

Lilith says, "Ok... Our next section is on honorifics..."

Erich cracks his knuckles. "You even have to be careful what criticism you air
of the Emperor in private. If he gets wind of it, you're likely to end up in
trouble. Take that sentiment and magnify it a hundred times and then you know
the gravity of voicing disagreement in Court."

Asaf'nor walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Asaf'nor has arrived.

Lilith nods to Erich.

Lilith says, "Before I get into the Your Grace's and Your Excellency's and
such... I need to make a small note here. Each Faction has its own set of
protocol guidelines. Some houses have elected not to use the fancier titles. It
is my suggestion that if you're not clear on what your house is using, that you
check your house's handbook or ask your fearless leader, your Faction Head, what
you will be using there. Some may argue that they never once saw a single
instance of 'Your Grace' in all the references to Duke Leto in the books,
however... with such a complex and detailed caste system as exists in the Dune
society, why wouldn't they have peerage, at least to some extent? Anyways,
moving right along here..."

Lilith says, "I'm not going to sit here and spout at you *all* the titles of
peerage, their honorifics, what to call the children and family dog, etc. We'll
hit the high spots in the interest of time and brevity, and on your own you can
read up on it all in the protocol and diplomacy guide (now showing on a DuneIII
web site near you)."

Lilith says, "Before I get into the titles, though, I have to mention the
Emperor. Our illustrious Padishah Emperor of the Known Universe is always,
always, always (did I say always?) 'Your Imperial Majesty' or 'His Imperial
Majesty'. We never say 'the Emperor' in IC conversation -- bad form. Very bad
form, that. Now that does just apply to conversation. In your poses, it is
perfectly fine to refer to 'the Emperor', it's conversation, the spoken part of
your pose, which should absolutely use the honorific."

Lilith says, "Those of high enough rank within the faufreluches, such as the
Siridari, might could get away with 'Your Majesty' or 'His Majesty', but I'd say
no one any lower could. And, while we're on the topic of the Imperial folks
again, yes, folks, we do have an Empress now, too. She is also 'Your Imperial
Majesty' or 'Her Imperial Majesty'."

Lilith says, "And here is the peerage, in descending order of rank..."

Duke/Duchess -- Your Grace or His or Her Grace, My Lord Duke or My Lady Duchess

Marquis/Marquise -- Your Illustrious Excellency or Your Excellency, His
Excellency or Her Excellency, My Lord Marquis or My Lady Marquise

Earl -- Your Lordship/Ladyship or His Lordship/Her Ladyship, or My Lord Earl/The
Lord Earl

Count/Countess -- Your Excellency or His/Her Excellency, or My Lord Count/My
Lady Countess

Viscount/Viscountess -- Your Excellency or His/Her Excellency, or My Lord
Viscount/My Lady Viscountess

Baron/Baroness -- Your Lordship/Ladyship or His Lordship/Her Ladyship, or My
Lord Baron/My Lady Baroness

Emylie mutters to Layard, "... not ma'am "

Lilith says, "And while we're on peerage, a few interesting things to note --
the plural of Siridar is Siridari, not Siridars. Heirs designate only use
'na-<title>' when presented or announced formally. Otherwise, the form is not
used in everyday speech or reference. There is no 'na-<title>' for House Minor
nobility. House Minor nobles are addressed as 'Lord <name>' or 'Lady <name>' and
My Lord or My Lady, and never 'Your Excellency' or 'Your Lordship'."

Fahahd walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Fahahd has arrived.

Lilith says, "Artisans and other non-noble functionaries of a House might be
styled 'Master' or 'Mistress'. It should be noted that in terms of theme, titles
such as Mr., Ms., and Miss are not appropriate. A position of honor, such as a
Bound Concubine, might be given the honorific 'Madame' as well, or even 'Lady'."

Lilith takes a deep breath. "Have I lost anyone? That was a pretty detailed
section! Are there any questions?"

Acelin walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Acelin has arrived.

Lilith says, "Don't forget to page Galen to get into the question/comment
queue..."

Lilith says, "Layard, you're first!"

Tazra has reconnected.

Layard asks, "As far as the issue of members of the Royal Family or any royal
family, if they have a coronating rank, like Duke or Marquis or Viscount...even
though if they are not a Siridar, would you use the addresses as discussed
previously. Such as for me, I am the Marquis Corrino...I could be addressed as
'His Illustrious Excellency?"

Layard says, "And by other royal family, I mean Great House Family..."

Tazra has partially disconnected.

Galen has disconnected.

Lilith says, "That's a really grey area. It depends on your relation, Layard, in
the faufreluches. The Emperor's immediate family is on the same level with the
Siridari, so if you're a member of that group I would say yes. However, if
you're on the level with the houses minor, being in the extended family, I would
say no... Does anyone else have an opinion to offer on that?"

Erich says, "The way I have understood it, nobility, regardless of
circumstances, are always referred to by the honorific of their specific title."

Lilith says, "Well, then I'm going to say that bears more research on my part. I
will double-check my sources, and clarify at a later date."

Lilith says, "Sound ok with you, Layard?"

Layard says, "Peachy keen."

Lilith nods. "Good catch. Elsa is next.."

Adrian_Malkary walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Adrian_Malkary has arrived.

Elsa says, "I would like to say something about the reference of the honorary
title of Lady to Bound Concubines. As concubines to high nobles are often Bene
Gesserit, the title Lady is already there as part of her role within the
Sisterhood. Am I correct ?""

Tazra says, "If i may cut in here, A concubine is always referred to as Lady
<first name>"

Lilith nods. "But there are Bound Concubines who are not Bene Gesserit. So she
would still have the honorific 'Lady', or 'Madame'."

Elsa nods to Lilith.

Lilith says, "If there are any other questions or comments, we're switching the
queue over to Erich for the duration of the seminar. Unforeseen RL circumstances
dictated that Galen leave us earlier than he had planned."

Lilith says, "If there are none, we'll get right back on track again..."

Lilith says, "Now that we know who gets called what (at least, in public. I
don't want to know or find out that the favorite Harkonnen honorific for Boris
is 'Hey, Snugglebug!'), we need to know when to do the other stuff, like bowing
and scraping."

Lilith pauses. "Asaf'nor? Want to sneak it in real quick...?"

Asaf'nor says, "Sorry, I came in late, this may have been mentioned or we may
still be getting to it but..""

Fahahd raises a hand. Who is it that we speak to to get into the queue?

Erich says, "Me"

Asaf'nor says, "How about addressing the children of Siridari or other titled
nobles who do not have "special" titles yet themselves."

Lilith points everyone to Erich.

Tazra mutters hmmm

Lilith says, "That is covered in the handbook, Asaf.."

Lilith says, "In the interests of time, I wasn't planning on covering it here
tonight."

Lilith says, "And I'll take Fahahd's comment, and that's the last on
honorifics... if you have anything else on this section, please hold it for the
end."

Asaf'nor says, "Ah. Missed those first pass. Found 'em."

Asaf'nor says, "But Paul was refered to as 'Master' IIRC?"

Ruhail says, "As is Ruhail's son. It always struck me is a title that one grows
into."

Fahahd looks contrite. I meant a comment for the end of the whole thing in
general...not necessarily specific to this section. Though it could work here.

Lilith points to the earlier disclaimer. "Houses may deviate slightly from this
at points..."

Lilith says, "Or, Fah, if you'd rather hold it for the end, we can certainly
move on..."

Lilith says, "No worries."

Ravn walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Ravn has arrived.

Shane has disconnected.

Asaf'nor says, "Kay.""

Triste walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Triste has arrived.

Fahahd nods. Thanks.

Lilith nods to Fahahd, and flips back through her notes. "Now... we were about
to go into a new section... which was it... ah yes, bowing and scraping."

Lilith says, "Protocol also governs entrances and exits, just as rigidly as
everything else. Keep an eye peeled for scene poses, so that you know who is
where with whom in a room. Those Siridari can be very touchy about how they are
approached. You wouldn't want to cause a major diplomatic incident by walking in
and then tackle-hugging Ophelia, now would you? I think her bodyguards might
have a thing or two to say about that. Oh, and this is a little-known rule of
etiquette... when approaching a Siridar, it is appropriate to await
acknowledgement from that Siridar before speaking. When leaving the presence of
a Siridar, permission to be excused (like we used to have to ask when we were
kids, to leave the dinner table) is expected to be asked."

Lilith says, "So, a tackle-hug is not an appropriate way to greet a noble. Not a
good thing, nope. This is where the bowing and scraping comes in -- the men get
to bow, and the ladies get to curtsy. That's spelled either 'curtsy' or
'curtsey', by the way. And there's also the oh-so-very useful 'regal nod', given
to those of equal or lower rank."

Lynna has disconnected.

Augie has disconnected.

Lilith says, "Here's a good way to remember who gets what in terms of obeisance:
the higher the noble outranks you, the lower YOU, my friend, go to the floor. In
terms of the Emperor, everyone gets to genuflect to him (lucky guy) -- this is
where one knee hits the floor. If, say, a peasant or slave were being addressed
by the Emperor, I'd say they'd be prostrate. That's where you are -all- the way
on the floor, and I do mean all the way."

Augie has connected.

Lynna has connected.

Lilith says, "A couple notes about obeisance..."

Lilith says, "Not breaking eye contact with someone you are bowing to could
signal mistrust, or a lack of respect."

Ravn says, "Like.. lying on the floor in front of the emperor?"

Ravn grins

Erich says, "Kneeling until your forehead touches it. A proskynesis, as the
Greeks called it."

Lilith says, "Somewhat, Ravn. It's a kneeling position."

Fahahd says, "think of how Muslims bow down to Mecca. Like that, isn't it?"

Erich says, "Yep"

Erich says, "Exactly the same."

Layard nods, "If you have ever seen the Last Emperor...it is kind of like kow
towing."

Lilith says, "Just a little bit more before we get to another break for
questions and comments, stay with me here folks... =)"

Lilith says, "And in terms of weapons... Saluting with weapons should not be
done, unless the receiver of the salute actually does own the weapon, such as
one's Siridar, and it should only be done when the bearing of weapons is
permitted. Naked blades in the Imperial Presence is strictly forbidden. I know I
don't want to be skewered by a Noukker any time soon for drawing my weapon in
Court."

Lilith says, "It's time for some more small print about honor. I'll make this
quick. Accidents and errors DO happen. A misplaced title or bow is certainly not
grounds, however, for immediately calling someone out except and unless there
are enough witnesses and/or evidence to assume the other person meant a direct
offense."

Lilith says, "For the sake of RP, please exercise tolerance. We shouldn't
promote an atmosphere in which being called out is a real and constant danger
during harmless and fun RP. Education is the key, and practice. Even more
experienced players will make mistakes."

Lilith says, "Any questions? Comments? Anyone? Buehler?"

Erich hehs.

Fahahd pokes his hand up here?

Lilith says, "First up... Tazra"

Elsa says, "For all late arrivals: Page Erich to get in qeue for questions and
comments."

Tazra says, "I have a question regarding weapons, so if the weapon was given to
you by the nobelman you are adressing it's ok?"

Tazra says, "to carry it i mean."

Haroon walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Haroon has arrived.

Lilith says, "That's not entirely what I mean by 'owned', Tazra. I mean, if
you've pledged the service of your weapon to your Siridar."

Tazra says, "ok now i understand."

Lilith nods. "Fahahd? You're up next..."

Fahahd says, "Just a quick linguistic note, though I've not seen this used too
often on here: thee and thou. Thee and thou are always singular, and familiar.
In other words, nobody addresses the Emperor as 'thou' save perhaps the closest
of his family in private situations. A noble can use thou to address his
subordinates, retainers, etc, but not his peers. And it's never used to address
a group."

Lilith says, "I have actually never seen anyone use thee or thou on here."

Lilith says, "But a good note to know anyways, thanks Fah. Adrian? You had a
question or comment?"

Fahahd has seen it used in correspondence ICly, for the msot part.

Adrian_Malkary Looks up "I would like to know what is the comman bow if you dont
know who someone is or have never met them? Such as you are just now meeting a
duke for the first time."

Erich says, "Call me 'thee' or 'thou' or anything else familiar and I'll shove
you in a pain amplifier. ;)"

Lilith says, "This is covered in detail in the protocol guide, on the DuneIII
web site, Adrian. The Dancer's Bow is a good, neutral bow to use if you're
unsure of someone else's station in relation to your own. To describe it: You
bend from the waist, one hand tucked at the abdomen and the other hand in the
small of the back, eyes straight forward as the head dips naturally. However, if
the person you're being introduced to is of a higher rank than you, and if you
KNOW it, you would likely use the 'Deep Bow'. Remember, the further apart in the
rank you are, the lower the person doing the bowing goes."

Lilith says, "Was there anything else, Adrian?"

Adrian_Malkary says "Nope that was it thanks."

Lilith says, "I believe Triste is next..."

Acelin has disconnected.

Triste says, "You mentioned 'calling out' when someone deliberately does not
uses proper protocol. What exactly is that?"

Lilith says, "Triste is the last for this round of questions or comments, by the
way. After him, we'll move on to the next section. If we missed you, please hang
on to your thought till the end."

Lilith says, "Calling out, as in, challenge to a duel."

Triste nods. "Thanks."

Lilith noddles. "No problem..."

Lilith says, "We're going to jump now into diplomacy. Everyone, at some point,
has found themselves in the position of doing a little diplomacy work, whether
they are a diplomat or not. I think everyone should have a basic idea of what a
diplomat does (weaseling is not a complete picture), just like everyone knows
what a Mentat, Suk, or Swordmaster does."

Lilith says, "There are different ranks within the diplomatic corps, just as
there are within the military. Some houses use these ranks, some do not. This is
another one of those things you'd have to check with your fac-head on. Those
ranks include Ambassador, Diplomat, Junior Diplomat, and then the usual parade
of Diplomatic Aides, Clerks, and Secretaries. Generally, it is through training
and experience that one moves up in the diplomatic corps. Do not expect to see a
twenty-something Ambassador. A twenty-something Junior Diplomat, sure. But
Ambassadors -should- have the wisdom of experience and time under their belts.
Theoretically."

Lilith says, "Diplomats should also know their stuff. There are certain things
diplomats should always be up on -- things about the house, the economy, who
does what, who has what title, etc. Diplomats should know who's on their
Siridar's list, and where on that little list they fall. The politics of the
house are key. You wouldn't want to be, say, caught socializing with a pretty
young Ginaz lass in the Lounge when you're a Moritani rogue and your Houses are
knee-deep in Kanly still. Talk about your career-limiting moves, folks.
Woo-boy!"

Lilith says, "Diplomats should also know when to talk, and when not to. Drinks
in the Lounge is all good and well for happy hour, but this is not the time or
place to be doing delicate, critical negotiations. And what's the point in going
to all that trouble for talks and negotiations, only to ruin it with a bad
etiquette blunder when on the other team's home turf? Well, unless you like the
trouble you'll be in, of course. Oh, and do remember one small thing... do not
assault the members of other houses, or their property. Breaking vases and
chairs just isn't cool. Don't break slaves, either. They are property."

Lilith says, "Always remember... GuildMail is your friend. When assigned to
another house as a diplomat or ambassador, etiquette dictates a 'hey, here I am,
hello!' letter. And don't forget your introductions either. Newly-arrived nobles
and high-ranking functionaries should always make the rounds. Not to mention,
this guarantees RP for you, at least at first until folks realize that little
problem with the teeth."

Lilith says, "And that's all I have to say about that... let's open the floor up
for questions and comments."

Lilith says, "Tazra? You get in first..."

Elsa has reconnected.

Elsa has partially disconnected.

Tazra says, "Is there some type of publication of relationships between houses
out there other than checking each house's website?"

Tazra says, "Such as declarations of WOA and such?"

Lilith says, "Each Faction Head has published their stances towards other houses
in their own house handbooks, yes. You can also speak with individual Heads if
you have questions about their stances."

Tazra says, "which channel should i take to talk with them OOC or IC?"

Lilith says, "You can page or @mail them, or if they're on <Public> or <Newbie>
you can ask there."

Lilith says, "Page or @mail might be best, though."

Tazra says, "ok, thats good to know, thanks!"

Lilith says, "Ravn is next.."

Ravn says, "Some of... No wait, most of the House Handbooks are horrible out of
date.. do the Fraction still have the same view on each other? Years after they
where written?"

Lilith says, "Actually... I beg to differ on that..."

Ravn erfs?

Lilith says, "Moritani, Alvstad, Harkonnen are up to date. Rastanyev and Ginaz
are about to be posted."

Lilith says, "Corrino is also on the way."

Ruhail says, "And Bajazet is soon to be done."

Lilith nods. "We just got a new player for Ruhail, so, he gets a little extra
time to get his together."

Ruhail salutes.

Lilith says, "There are also links to the houses from the web site now, those
houses who have web sites."

Haroon says, "Still though, policies shift quite quickly - probably faction
handbooks. Is it reasonable to assume that diplomats have a degree of OOC
knowledge that they may not have had chance to RP and get?"

Haroon says, "Sorry, faster than faction handbooks I meant"

Lilith says, "It's on the shoulders of house heads to keep their diplomatic
staff in tune, as far as IC info goes. I would not suggest that diplomats are
permitted to use OOC knowledge. That's just not kosher."

Lilith says, "GuildMail, when you don't have time to RP, is a great tool for
disseminating information."

Lilith says, "Martin? You have a comment?"

Anatole walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Anatole has arrived.

Martin nods. "I would also like to point out that reading the archives for new
players help in showing the current politics.

Lilith nods. "Excellent point."

Lilith says, "Does anyone have a question or comment that got skipped earlier?"

Elsa raises a hand.

Erich says, "Elsa does"

Lilith grins. "Ok.. Elsa!"

Elsa says, "Three, in fact. 2 questions and a comment."

Tazra Raises hand

Lilith says, "After Elsa, I think we'll open things up for general discussion
and commentary... in other words... *poof* goes the queue. Thanks for your help,
Erich. =)"

Lilith says, "Elsa has the floor till she's done then!"

Tazra lowers hand and sighs

Elsa says, "Ok; First a comment about the last subject we covered. I would like
this opportunity to stress that the Bene Gesserit are /not/ regarded as witches
here expect perhaps by the Imperial Church. Now for my 2 questions..."

Elsa says, "My question is, referring back to the first section of this seminar,
on Faufreluches: When someone is of noble birth, but is not aware of it, does
his or her noble status count only from the moment it is officially recognized,
or before that as well ? Say, a noble has a right to claim a minor House.
However, he/she is not aware of it, and the House changes lords. When this
person finds out ten years later that he or she actually had the right to claim
rulership over that House then, will it be recognized a valid claim ten years
later, or does the Faufreluches demand that the title be recognized ten years
earlier to hold stake ?"

Lilith nods. "Absolutely, Elsa. There's a mystique there, we don't know, at this
point in the theme, just what the Bene Gesserit are about. We just know they can
be darn helpful."

Lilith says, "I'd say that appropriate documentation would have to be provided,
as with everything, Elsa. There have been instances here before of things being
reversed due to a "sudden" discovery of someone else's legitimate right to
inherit."

Lilith says, "But as for the noble status... if it's not known, it's not known.
When the documentation to prove it is provided, then sure, it should be."

Elsa says, "Thank you Lilith...and my last question:"

Lilith noddles.

Elsa says, "My question is, referring back to the section covering the Imperial
Presence: Is there any way/situation in which a meeting with the Emperor can be
/in/formal unless you are in his Harem ? In /any/ situation, you are not to look
directly into his eyes unless specifically granted this by him? ( "You are
allowed to look at me") Aren't there situations thinkable in discussions where
it is in fact highly improper or against etiquette not to look at him when you
speak to him ?"

Lilith passes that to Erich.

Erich says, "There are instances where the Emperor insists on informality. For
instance, if he receives you in one of the smaller audience chambers, in his own
chamber, Harem, or pretty much anywhere in the Palace save for the Selamlik,
he's likely to request that you 'stand down' and do away with the obsequeties.
It's going to differ from Emperor to Emperor, but Erich only insists on ceremony
and stolid ritual where they're useful. :)"

Tazra says, "One quick question, will transcripts be available for this lecture,
and how would I obtain one?"

Ravn says, "That would cost you"

Tazra laughs

Lilith says, "Elsa, does that cover everything for you?"

Elsa says, "Thank you, Erich. Indeed it does Lilith."

Erich winks and nods. "You're most welcome."

Lilith notes that she hadn't taken the floor back from Elsa yet... "But to
answer your question, Tazra, a log of this will be sent out the -readers
listserv, which is archived on the web site in case you miss the email. And
now... the floor is everyone's."

Smurf has arrived.

Tazra drops Smurf.

Ravn says, "Yay! Spamfeast!"

Erich should take the opportunity to shamelessly plug, and note that if you're
interested in experiencing House Corrino in its most inner and intriguing state,
we are looking for a few good Corrinos. ;D

Smurf has left.

Layard adds, "Especially concubines."

Tazra says, "Erich, i might be interested"

Lilith grins. "It's good to be the Emperor."

Fahahd stumps for House Harkonnen, as well - if you're into decadence,
depravity, and cunning, we're the place.

Tazra says, "Erich, it depends, see i'm trying to get as fast as i can into RP,
do you have any spots for diplomats or the like?"

Ruhail says, "Bajazet posse yo!"

Erich says, "Take it to page, Tazra. No need to spam these fine folks."

Haroon says, "A lil action in the phattest faction *hi-5s Ru*"

Lilith says, "We're still kinda discussing protocol and diplomacy..."

Ravn says, "Fine? He isent talking about us is he?"

Lilith gives Erich a stern look.

Ruhail says, "w3rd."

Lynna pokes Lay and Erich and shakes her head.

Marco has disconnected.

Lilith says, "Alright. Then we're not discussing protocol and diplomacy... Spam
away!"

Slade walks in from Lower Lobby through the Double Doors.

Slade has arrived.

Ophelia stops her log right *here* then!

Lynna snugs Lilith, "But think everyone was good for hours.

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